INT: We've been talking a lot about movies, but we're also talking about the Guild [DGA] and about how everybody works, and one of the biggest factors going on in the industry right now is work. Where the work is, and how it's migrated because of things. [ES: Right.] And I wanted to give you a chance to talk a little bit about your career and big, challenging questions that are there for the Guild right now, because of things like benefits and rebates and where people live and where people work. Because you... [ES: Right.] You had mentioned to me that... or in the early days in New York, the New York Guild was different than the West Coast. 

ES: Well, you know what I was saying, let me answer that in a number of different ways. I think there are three parts of it. You know, one is the working conditions part. Then there's the tax credit, kind of chasing the tax credits around the world and around the United States. And the first part is just interesting because we both go back long enough that, you know, working conditions are a very complicated subject because when we started, and I've talked to this about people, I've showed them budgets and the math of this. When we started labor, you know, union labor was a very big part percentage-wise of the budget, by far the biggest piece. And because we were not dealing, especially in the Woody [Woody Allen] world with Actors who made 20 million bucks or anything like that, so if we took like our six million dollar budget or whatever it was, by far the biggest piece was union New York labor. Including the DGA, the IA [IATSE], the teamsters, 829 [United Scenic Artists], Scenic Artists, that was the budget. So managing that part of the movie, in terms of their hours and their working conditions, really had a huge impact on the budget and the contract, which we started with, which from a production point of view, from a kind of bureaucratic studio production was a really handcuffing budget, handcuffing contract, and it made New York really unique. But those conditions that it handcuffed, I always, you know, said made our lives more normal.

ES: For example, when I started the only straight time call was between six AM and nine AM, Monday through Friday. If you were outside that call, you were at a double day for everybody, including the teamsters. So we worked our schedule during the week. We had a five-day, we basically worked from Monday through Friday from like seven to six or seven. And if you went past 14 elapsed hours, you went into triple time, something that doesn't even exist now. And the meal penalties were onerous meal penalties. They were really like, you decided not to break on time, it changed the nature of the outcome of your day in a way that it doesn't yet, til you hit, you know, 10 penalties. So you know, we were all, you know, and LA had a contract that was any five out of seven, any five out of seven days was a straight week, and you could start the day anytime you wanted to. Like on THE SMURFS in New York, something I hated but I was willing to do, we had an 11 PM call at night. And that was a straight call, you know, for the day of that day. [INT: So that was later in your career when the rules...] Yeah, later. After the contract, yeah, after the contract it changed, so in the late ‘80s [1980s], you know, New York was sort of shut out of feature work because of this contract. It was like the studios made a statement, "We're not going to use that contract. We're not going to make movies in New York. And we're not going to do that." And ultimately a new New York IA [IATSE] contract, which is still a healthy contract for New York Crewmembers, but if you talk to New York Crewmembers who are our age, you know, they're never going to get the kind of contract they had back in the early days. So part of the rationale for it was not just to kind of get people rich, it was so people worked nine to five on a weekday. You know, so people had a life that was somewhat like other people. Now, most New York movies don't shoot on the weekends 'cause so many locations you can't get on weekdays. So I would say 90 percent of New York movies are like Wednesday through Monday, or you know, Friday through whatever, through Wednesday. You know, and that's a straight week. You know, and you can have like, you could have a whole movie at night, and you get no premium for that whatsoever. So you know, from the point of view of, you know, somebody looking at it that way, you might say, you know, we've gone backwards to some degree.

ES: And then when you add the incredible weight of Actor contracts in terms of the kind of money that Actors can get and their need to fit into a certain amount of time, you can find that it doesn't matter how many hours you shoot budget-wise, which is horrible. In other words, you could shoot until you drop; it's cheaper than shooting another day. And that's where this whole issue of safety has come in, and it's a huge issue, and if you look at my, something I'm extremely proud of, if you look at the history of my call sheets, I don't think I've worked 16 hours more than twice or three to four times. I mean, we really, you know, and I've had to shut things down, you know, it's sometimes a big struggle with Directors, but like I really believe that you don't want to build a movie around 16, 17 hour days and have people go home, and you know, there are people who've been killed, people who've been killed driving, you know, so I'm a big... And I think people have to understand why that's the case. You know, you have to, you can't just say, "Oh it's a problem." It's because the amount of overtime doesn't punish you enough, because you're paying an Ac--you know, you might have two Actors who are getting 35 million dollars, which is more than the cost of all of the IA [IATSE] labor on the whole movie. And I'm not criticizing the Actors; they get all they want. But so part of what's happened is there's been a much more... the business has become less labor friendly that way, you know, even though that people still make a good living. You know, good IA, it's a good living. It's just that their conditions have become much more at the whim of A, these hours, starting any day, starting any five out of seven, starting at night. And then adding to that the fact that the tax credits have gone to three or four states where 80 percent of the production is in like, you know, Georgia, you know, for a while in Louisiana--[INT: Or Canada or England.] Or Canada, or England, or Prague, you know, the LA work. And I was never a big LA filmmaker. I made a number of films there. I love shooting in LA, but you know it's been a tragedy. [INT: It doesn't exist.] Tragedy for LA, you know, what's happened because of tax incentives. So we chase tax incentives, disrupt people's lives, you know, have… and it's like a drug. It's like we can't resist it. You're going to go into, you know, a movie with a 50 million dollar budget and get 15 million of it back? You know, how can you not do that? It's irresponsible from the point of view of the Studio not to do it, but it's... Also creatively. I remember on ZOMBIELAND, we wanted to shoot, you know, we were originally going to shoot in Louisiana. We had a problem with the location there, and instead of shooting, you know, this sort of Southwestern journey, we moved to Atlanta, 'cause that was the other tax credit state. And it was, you know, creatively we pulled off the film, but it was like, we were supposed to be sort of moving from Los Angeles to, you know, a couple of hours out and then come back, that was sort of the story, you know. And we were in Atlanta, you know. So like we were dealing with that terrain, those locations. We tried to kind of double Beverly Hills in Atlanta, which we kind of found a big mansion. And we came to LA for two days of shooting, which turned out to be great. But I'm kind of just babbling about it a little, but I find the chasing the tax credits to be a very big creative impediment, you know, to like where you would go, you know, if you were at a cornfield, where you would go try to find one in the corner of Southwestern Georgia instead of in Nebraska or in Iowa, where you have, where, you know, for Nestor's [Nestor Almendros] movie with Richard Gere and you know. [INT: Right. DAYS OF HEAVEN.] DAYS OF HEAVEN. So you know, we're all struggling with that now. I mean I think, you know, Atlanta's the hub. I mean I love Atlanta. [INT: But happily you've been able to maintain your family and your family life and have a good experience?] Yeah, totally. But we... Yes, we have to travel a little.

INT: First, I wanted to ask you about, if you had to choose among the multitude here of all your endeavors, is there one that is most dear to you? Or anything that sticks out or a couple that you just want to, that are things that you say, "I'm so happy I was there." 

ES: Yeah. You know, I would say things I'm proud of, moments that I really feel... like I think the dance number in ENCHANTED is one of the--[INT: Which takes place?] Which takes place in Central, ends up at Bethesda Fountain, but it's like in five different locations around Central Park, with five different styles of dancing. And then all of them coalesce in this finale at the fountain with like gymnasts and Amy Adams comes in, you know, and there's 200 dancers, who are all dancers, not extras, you know, like it was... and we kind of had to wait, you know, for the right weather, for matching weather, for a day that was for the finale. I just wouldn't go out there if it was too hot, it was in the summer. We ended up with this beautiful day; we just kind of waited for the right day to do it. And you know, the location department, I think it was Evan Perazzo at that point, did a, you know--DGA boy, he's now a Production Manager, you know, did a fantastic job. And I just think that scene, you know, it starts with just this little Amy, you know, Amy and Patrick [Patrick Dempsey] walking down and calypso and then lederhosen, and then, you know, and it builds and builds and builds and then finally it ends in a really sort of exuberant location dance number in New York, like WEST SIDE STORY or something. You know, so I was very proud of that, and I'm proud of that film. You know, I think it was, you know, a lovely enchanting little movie, and Amy was, you know, really special and fantastic. And you know, Kevin Lima was really a, you know, he is an animator. I mean that's where he came from, so his, he was another person who had to sort of discover live action shooting. You know, and it was a challenge, you know, for him and for all of us, you know, to get us where we needed to go. And also it was a musical, and it sort of evolved into a bigger musical than… you know, I remember talking to Whitney Green I think and going like, "Is this a musical?" you know, like 'cause it was not clear a hundred percent that they were going to be these elaborate, fully realized musical numbers. The one we did, and we built an incredible set, the ballroom set, which, you know, Ronnie Petagna [Ron Petagna] figured out a way to build the whole thing where it was the entire main stage at stage C I think at Steiner [Steiner Studios], stage three, which is the biggest stage. And he built it so the whole, there was a city underneath it. So everything could exist underneath it, so we could have like, 'cause it took wall to wall, the set. And it was, you know, we brought in Jules Fisher, you know, to kind of do lighting… and you know, there was just a much more elaborate musical chorographical playback oriented movie than I had expected when we took it on. And we kind of adapted to that, and sort of, you know, pulled it off I think. So I think from a kind of a New York movie point of view I was very proud of ENCHANTED.

ES: I think in terms of the best movies I've worked on, it's hard to not think TOOTSIE'S the best movie I worked on. You know, I think just from the point of view early in my career, you know, just Location Manager, but I had, you know, it's interesting because I think it mentioned working with Ron and Jerry, Ron Schwary [Ronald L. Schwary] and Jerry Molen [Gerald R. Molen], who, you know, are two fantastic guys, but both of them were from LA. So I had a little bit of a special place because I was like the New York boy, and you know, I think Sydney [Sydney Pollack] and Dustin both felt, "Okay, this is our New York contact." You know, I mean Ron and Jerry both did a great job, but I was like, "Where do we go? You know, how do we do this?" And it was such a complicated movie, everybody knows the story, I mean it's complicated creatively. And then for it to turn out so perfectly, you know, I just feel like I didn't, I was the Location Manager, want to overstate my role. I did do a good job finding good locations, but I would say that in terms of a movie my name's on, you know, it's probably the best movie. Maybe that. Maybe HANNAH AND HER SISTERS. [INT: That's great.]

INT: Are there incidents in making these things, days or just truly outlandishly unbelievable things that you have manifest under your control to do it that either went extremely well and you went, "Wow," or you just got out of town just before the sheriff arrived? 

ES: The scariest moment, and this was not a safety moment, this was just a crazy, crazy moment. So on SMURFS 2 [THE SMURFS 2], it was set in Paris. We shot most of it in Montreal, but we did do a very extensive Paris unit with Raphaël Benoliel, you know, who did MIDNIGHT IN PARIS, you know, Producer helping me do it. And we got permission, you know, there was a sequence at Notre Dame, of you know, part of the action part of the movie where we're flying all over Paris. So we had to shoot in the, we were trying to get plates of going all the way up like the tower, you know, of... [INT: Of the real Notre Dame?] Of the real Notre Dame, right. So and just at that point, and I don't know that, where it is in this day, I have no idea where this piece of equipment is, but the 100-foot technocrane came into existence. And you know the 100-foot technocrane is a big piece of equipment. And we were using it very early before all of the kinks had worked out, and where people, Grips and camera people were just getting the sense of like how big it was. I don't even know if it's still being used, and I'm a big fan of technocranes, so I'm not challenging their creative genius. But we had quite the moment on that movie whereb so we're finished with the... luckily we got the shot, we're in the Notre Dame plaza at night, right in front of Notre Dame. We have to be off by like seven in the morning, or you know, we're in big trouble. And we have the biggest piece of equipment in like the movie business. And we're trying to--you know, and then some like sparks start to fly, and it kind of has a electric freak-out, and it's in the upright position, can't be moved. It's tons and tons of weight and it's dangerous. You couldn't consider moving it with the arm fully extended like 100 feet in the air. So we--[INT: What time is it now?] This is about nine at night. No, no, it was probably about 11. We finished the shot. You know, we probably had to get it off in the next few hours, and we thought we had plenty of time. You know, we're probably supposed to finish shooting--[INT: But the deal was you've got to be gone.] Yeah, all of the gear, no trace of us for like six in the morning. And it turned out that the only way at that point, and I'm sure they fixed this, to get the technocrane down was for somebody to find the actual nut that controls the arm and--[INT: The gear, right?] Yeah, it was like, yeah, the gear. And hand do it with a wrench. So like it took every bit of six hours. [INT: How many--] And I was watching the arm going, "You know, is it moving?" You know, it's like I was trying to get like a protractor to see like, you know, to see if it's actually physically coming down. [INT: Meanwhile there are two million tourists all ready to show up.] Yeah, ready. So that was a frightening moment, but you know, amazingly enough right at the last minute, it's on the ground, it gets trucked out. It's like… we pulled it off. So that--[INT: That must have been a good croissant.] Yes, there was some good breakfast that morning. I mean, I haven't done, you know, the scale of the movies don't really lend themselves. I haven't done, you know, Marvel films. I haven't done, you know, incredibly complicated visual stunt movies, fortunately, because I'm, you know, it's not my instinct to do, you know, a big car chase movie. The truth is we did a lot of car stuff on JUMP STREET [21 JUMP STREET].

ES: I think, you know, when I look back on movies that I feel really good about creatively, another one is 21 JUMP STREET, as far as just... you know, nailing that sort of vision of what Chris [Chris Miller] and Phil [Phil Lord] had, and with their experience, and getting that on camera, and you know, having it have some scale. It was very low, you know, we didn't have a lot of money for that, and you know, the whole thing on the bridge, you know, shooting that in New Orleans, you know, it was just I felt pretty proud of sort of what production value we got on JUMP STREET, considering the scale of the movie and you know, the experience everybody had.

INT: When you set out, when you were nice, pleasantly headed to be part of a collegial group when you were studying history and starting to teach and you ended up joining the band of gypsies in the movie business, you found a different kind of family. Has that been a good and rewarding experience? 

ES: Yes. Yeah, I mean it's been much more complicated than, because of the travel than I would've expected. You know, especially when I got out of the sort of New York rhythm. You know, when I went to do SPACEBALLS it was not, you know, it's like I stopped being known as New York production guy. But you know, some people... and I did do, you know, we probably did at least 10 more movies in New York, but it wasn't my career the way there are some New York Producers and some New York Production Managers who've never left. You know, I didn't have that opportunity. And it wasn't 'cause I wanted to travel, it was just, I was getting calls for jobs that were out of town, and I needed to make a living, so. But I mean I've had some wonderful relationships with Actors and Directors, and that have held, that are still my friends, and are very important to me. But I would say that I was always really enamored and respectful and I think had a very kind of mutual respect with the Crews. I mean a good Grip to me is an artist of the highest level. You know, and in New York particularly, the New York Crews, the New York Grips and Property Masters and Electricians are incredibly special quality craftsmen. And any time I brought a DP [Director of Photography] or an Art Director or Production Designer into New York, I'd say, "Just trust me. You can work with these guys, there's nobody better." They've been, "Thank you. You know, this has been great." And when I've been forced to bring in, you know, other Crews to New York and it's always sort of like a little bit annoying. By the end of it they're like, "I didn't need to do that." You know what I mean? So that's my special, you know, my special sort of place in the business is what it takes to technically make these films and the people who do it. And that's my skill. [INT: And that's your movie family.] Yeah. Exactly. [INT: And they're lucky to have you.] Well, thank you.

INT: Anyway, thanks Ez. 

ES: All right. It's been a pleasure. [INT: Anything else to add to this?] No, no, I just would say, you know, one note I think the Directors Guild, just really I mean this, the Directors Guild as a benefactor of a better quality life related to medical, which I'm dealing with, related to pension and welfare, related to working conditions, related to the hours, if we can hold on to this as long as we can, it's an incredible system. Anybody who is starting out, don't take it lightly, it makes your life work, working your whole life in the DGA. It can make it really work.